Wednesday, January 04, 2006

The Provisional Friendship

I love the Irony of life. Earlier in the day I was discussing with one of my friends the issue of women wearing pants, and to save time I sent her the link to the blog I wrote on the subject in early May. While looking that blog over and seeing the interesting comments I received, I remembered that last week one of my friends told me that the blog was a little dull of late. That really doesn't bother me all that much. I write the blog about my life and my thoughts. I can't help it if interesting situations dont always present themselves, and thus catalyze a comment-friendly blog. As Hashems plan would have it though a doozy of a situation presented itself a couple of hours ago, and I think this is going to be one of the hottest, most debated blog in months (writing that made me feel sleazy for some reason).
As you may or may not know I returned from the Holy Land last night. It has been bittersweet being back, but on the flight I had a slight epiphany. I knew that bad things would happen in my life, that obstacles would be put in my way: there's is just no avoiding it. But I told myself that I must be prepared for whatever negative events cross my path, and to simply accept them as G-ds will. No good will come from letting them overpower me. The key to my happiness is to remain calm, understanding and open-minded to anything that might happen in my life. So I was well prepared (to a certain extent) for what would happen tonight.
I was supposed to have dinner with an old buddy tonight on Lawng Oyland. Unfortunately I recognized the fact that I was way to jet-lagged to drive to L.I. at 7 pm (my body clocks 2 am). I decided to call one of my friends and ask if she wanted to come along and maybe drive. Being that she hasn't seen me in months I was right to guess that she would say yes. A little while later the original dinner pal called me and said he had to cancel. OK, no biggie, it happens. I called my other friend and told her what happened, and asked if she wanted to get dinner locally. She hesitated, and said that she'd call me back. Five minutes later she calls me back and tells me that since she's in a relationship now we can't hang out one on one anymore..."theres no tachlus in it", but we can still hang out in groups. Fortunately for my jaw there were plenty of my not-fully-unpacked clothes on the floor to cushion the fall. I listened to what she had to say and didn't protest in the least. I did mention that I know plenty of people who are married who are still friends with members of the opposite sex without chaperones, yet I quickly strayed away from this line of thought as I realized there was no tachlus in it (no sarcasm intended). She asked if I objected or was upset by her decision. I told her it really didn't matter one way or the other, as it was her decision to make and that I would accept it. She's new to a real relationship and I don't want to make it any harder on her, and I've been davening for her for several months now (in the shiduch area), so I'm certainly not going to complain. So I told her it was ok and that we'd speak later and I hung up (thinking back now I'm a little shocked that she didn't even wan't to come and say hi).
So now for the obvious Question:Can men and women remain friends once they're in a serious relationship? Personally, I think yes. I'm sure there's plenty who would disagree with me which is fine, but allow me to give reasoning and situational requirements based on my own experience. As I've mentioned I know of married women who have male friends that they may even talk to and socialize with without their husband, and vice versa. Now there should be grounds rules for this obviously. Watching a movie on the couch together is a big no-no, but I don't think having dinner is. What I found interesting is that my friend was concerned about what the image of she and I being seen together would give off. I was thinking the exact opposite. Had I asked her to come over and help me unpack, that would have been problematic, but getting pizza together shouldn't be, especially since anyone who might know us will know that we've been good friends for years now. Which leads me to my next essential: trust.
I guess once two people are in a very serious relationship it might be wrong for them to spent time alone with members of the opposite sex...? Just this Monday me and one of by best friends girlfriend (heck, for all intents and purposes we'll call him my best friend) went to a cafe and then to the movies together (we saw "Prime" which we both really enjoyed). Now my best friend didn't object nor did it bother him in any way. She obviously didn't mind, and neither did I. Me and my best friends girlfriend (Ahh screw it, it's Jestifer) have become good friends and we get along smashingly. But my best friend trusts me, she trusts me, she trusts his judgment, and I trust me as well. Hence going to the movies together was a non-issue. I don't think it even occurred to Jestifer that there might be something scandalous about our cinematic rendezvous. I have many female friends B"H and I'm confident they would all say that I've always been a complete gentleman....even if I make the occasional lude joke (which isn't directed at them, nor is it sleazy in the insinuating sense). I certainly don't like to think that my trustworthiness came into question in her mind. Nonetheless I still do accept her decision, and respect it to a certain extent (the need to vent a bit is apparent, but that's why I have the blog).
I was a little hurt, but as I mentioned above, was well prepared for something like this, so I'm feeling amazingly well considering I now have a limited and ground-ruled friendship with one of me closest mates. The odd thing is that none of my close female friends are married. The only girl I was very close with that is married I was also romantically involved with at one point, so a post-marital platonic friendship would be very sketchy and perhaps inappropriate (Even if our romantic relationship ended over 6 years ago...and it was my doing). Yet as irony would have it we actually started speaking on line every now and again last year, and even hung out once over pesach (in public of course). But if her husband had a problem with us hanging out (which I think maybe he did) I wouldn't argue. There's a significant past there, and it certainly is enough grounds for a legitimate basis of suspicion. When she mentioned at the end of YomTov that we should meet for lunch in the city I said "no prob" but didn't pursue it in any way. In this case it felt a bit inappropriate...even if I am sure nothing inappropriate would ever happen.
I must admit now that I'm very scared of losing the rest of my female friends once they get hitched or close to it (and then It'll just be me stuck with Jestifer and Talel's mother :). Personally, if I consider you a good friend (i.e. someone I keep in touch with) I will not hinder our friendship once I'm involved with someone (E"H, BEH). It's just not me, I didn't do it in thepast, and I won't do it in the future (E"H) but that's not to say the opposite isn't true for others. I had a girlfriend for a quite a while and I didn't cut off my female friends then, and I was 100% faithful to my girlfriend throughout our entire relationship, and I don't think anyone thought otherwise of me even if I did see "E.T." with another girl during that time.
So what this boils down to is that I now have one less friend to call to see a movie, go to a mall, or get a bite to eat with.....unless of course there's others involved, but to be honest I don't think I'm really going to got for that provisional stuff. It feels patronizing, contrived and somewhat insipid. I will of course be 100% cordial and available to my friend if she ever needs anything. I don't want to be on bad terms. I think I'd just be uncomfortable making plans that adhere to specific circumstances. I hope I'm not coming across as petty. I think I'm just a little insulted. It upsets me that Jestifer whose only known me for 7 months (but who has become a legitimate friend despite her "gorilla" boyfriend) can fully trust me, while someone whose known me for several years can't. One might say that that really isn't the issue, but I would argue that in many ways it became the issue. Unless my friend has had a significant religious revival in the last three weeks (to the yeshivaish end) then it is, I think, justifiably bothersome to me that our friendship has been modified to such an extent. I'm just not sure it's necessary. But so it goes...
I should point out that if chas vashalom her relationship doesn't work out and she wants to get some pizza one night- just the two of us- I won't be the atypical shmuck and say "Ohhhhh so now it's ok...yadda, yaddda, yadda". I'd be happy to hang out with her again. Nekamah never suited me. I'm merely respecting her decision... while venting some frustrations, as well as jotting down my view on a controversial topic. I'm looking forward to the comments on this one- it's been a while since the blog had a good debate going.

18 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dont wrry we can always hang out.. and if my husband or boyfriend dosent let me then he dosent trust me which is a problem 2 the relatinoship. If ur partner doesnt trust u enough 2 let u go hang out with a friend of teh opposite sex then there is something wrong because trust is teh key thing to any relationship

Wednesday, January 04, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i used to agree with you. my last girlfriend and i talked about this because she had a lot of friends who were guys and i had a lot who were girls. In the end we decided it didnt bother either of us....then she ended up dropping me for (read: cheated on me - in a religious jewish sense of the word, meaning already agreed to go out with him while we were still dating- with) one of them and getting engaged right away...so my thoughts changed to say the least.

Thursday, January 05, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find myself in this situation quite a bit. I have maintained friendships with many men over the years, mostly men that I have had involvement with. I'm still friends somewhat with Jeff Nelson (remember him?)

Friendships and relationships are such a tricky thing. They should be handled very delicately, but most often aren't.

I think that if a person is in a relationship, providing that there is trust and no insecurity, it should be fine for them to be friends with someone of the opposite sex.
Here's an example: I have a boyfriend that I've had for 2 years now, and probably will have him forever. I have many male friends, and they all know Ryan. I make sure that any friends I had before we were together, he knows and any friends I make now, he'll meet before I ever hang out with them. To me, the point is to not make Ryan feel left out or suspicious. I have nothing to hide, therefore, I hide nothing.

Now, I'm not friends with every guy I've been involved with. There are many reasons for this; 1.we just grew apart, 2. it ended badly or 3.(and i can admit to this)-some of them, I don't trust myself with. I don't mean that I'll betray my love and give love to someone else....but I'll think about it. And why put myself in that situation? Its almost the same concept as being shomer n'giyah....don't touch and put yourself in a situation that you might not be happy with later.

But if it was a relationship that had little or no significance on my heart in a romantic sense, why couldn't you be friends?

Its my opinion that this girl could have handled this a little better. Introduce you to her man, and thus show him that there is nothing to worry about. Then he has NO reason to feel uncomfortable. Who knows, maybe you and him could be close friends too? Whenever I get into a relationship, my friends are Ryan's and mine, old and new.

Ryan's female friends don't bother me b/c I don't let myself feel threatened by them.
He loves me and I am confident in that love.

After all, isn't that what relationships are about?

Thursday, January 05, 2006  
Blogger The Fades said...

the post u made is too long for me to read when i drink alcohol and so is the last comment from the vegas womman. ALl i Know is that the girl who this blog is about is gonna read this and be pissed off at you..and that is annoying, b/c you should have the right to say what u want. But unfortunately, nothing is that simple my pal...i always hold back from destroying girls on my blog b/c it will simply get back to them and make me seem like a pyscho. either way...good post.

Thursday, January 05, 2006  
Blogger Hopefool said...

OK- First off: Jen, excellent points. I think I agree with everything you had to say (and incedently am I one of those guys you wont hang out with because you don't trust yourself? Is that why you won't come to New York? :).
Secondly: I don't think I "destroyed" this girl in my blog Fades. While I was little hurt by her decision I didn't fight her on it either, and will accept it 100%. However it was important to me to voice my opinion on the decision.
As I was writing the blog I knew that she would probably read it (although I honestly wondered if she would still read the blog or if that would also be considered inappropriate in some way to her), and looking over what I wrote I don't think I would change anything. I have this blog to document my life AND to help sort out issues that come to pass, and this one was certainly one of significance. I hope she wasn't offended, and am sorry if she was, but I think the post was just.
Thirdly: Your not a psycho, you're just sanity challenged.

Thursday, January 05, 2006  
Blogger Anonymous said...

For you, since you can't understand what problems she has with it, then its not wrong for you..

However, if going out with you for pizza would make her feel that she's doing something inappropriate, then she shouldn't.

Friday, January 06, 2006  
Blogger Hopefool said...

I know. Is the fact that I'm not trying to degrade her not coming through clearly? (no sarcasm)

Friday, January 06, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well... i can surely see why you'd feel sleazy writing that post! I can imagine that if you were truly just friends with this girl, you would support herlife's choices, however unreasonable they may seem to you, rather than airing her personal life in such a public domain. Highly disappointing... and indicative that YOUR relationship with her is CLEARLY not platonic. Friendship is about supporting what the other person feels is best for his/her life. It is evident that your agenda here is selfish, that this is about how she makes you feel... Sounds like somebody has some unresolved feelings for a umm "platonic" friend.

Furthermore, being surrounded by many married couples; friends, parents, acquaintances, I know almost none that would feel comfortable going to dinner alone with a member of the opposite sex, especially one who once confessed his love for her. It is simply inappropriate, and borders on emotional infidelity. It is naive and purposefully ignorant of you to choose to think any other way.

You refer to the notion of trust. I trust that human beings are, well, just that = human beings. We were programmed to have emotional and physiological attractions to members of the opposite sex. You may not choose to acknowledge it, but the intensity with which you write about this situation clearly shows it to be true. So rather than berating the lack of trust in her relationship, maybe you should spend some time introspecting on the lack of trust and honesty you have for your own internal feelings. And as for the one serious relationship you've had in your life (which I think hardly qualifies you to speak with any sort of expertise on the subject), if you felt comfortable with your girlfriend spending time alone with some guy who once had (has) feelings for her, and if she felt comfortable doing it, then there was something terribly amiss in your relationship and it obviously lacked in "tachlis". Perhaps that is why it didn't last.

It's cute that you choose to write about this on your blog, propogating a little drama... Very high school!! And my favorite touch is your not-so-subtle reconciliation offer at the end, should her relationship fail and she want to join you for pizza... "platonically", of course...

Time to be just a little honest with yourself, and to respect the decisions of your friends (not just paying lip service to them)... and for the sake of not committing too much Lashon Hora, probably time to take your post down as well...

Friday, January 06, 2006  
Blogger The Fades said...

man oh man...that last post by anonymous is evil. The person calls the hopefull fool out for acting selishly and with a "high school mentality." What is upsetting to me is that anonymous then does the exact same things he/she criticized the hopeful fool for doing! Anonymous tries to embarrass him in public and only continues the "high schoolish" mentality. Anonymous, you are a tremendous hypocrite. Anyone reading what you wrote should be able to clearly see that.
As for the park ranger guy, I look forward to reading about your life.

Saturday, January 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ok I've been reading this blog for a while now, and this is the first time I've ever posted, but I feel I need to on this one. I totally agree with The Fades on this. Those annoymous comments were way too harsh, and 100% hypocritical. I think the Hopeful Fool made clear that even though he's upset by his friends decision, he still supports it. Furthermore he never says anything to the point that he was OK with his ex-girlfriend hanging out with guys she was once involved with, and to say that is why his relationship with her didn't last is overly-judgemental and out-right disgusting . And finally is it loshon hora if he doesn't say in any way who the perons is? He doesn't have the right to vent his own feelings?

Sunday, January 08, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's the deal. Anonymous sounds very much like a girl who has taken personal offense to the HOpeful Fool's comments; unless she is the said girl in the blog, all she can do is be an outsider looking in. To that affect, to practically maliciously assume that the Hopeful Fool is exhibitng "high-school" behavior, and needs to re-examine himself is almost to say that the HOpeful Fool cannot have his own opinion, especially witout getting attacked. The whole idea of this blog is that he should be able to voice his feeligns and emotions. YOu claim that it's human behavior to have emotions, so who are oyu to say that the Hopeful Fool cannot do those same things--be human.
I will agree with oyu on somethings that you said, anonymous, like being uncomfortable with people of the oppsoite sex, and platonica realtionships, but that's not to say one can't feel rejected by a friend, and voice his opinion. You sound a little too bitter and resentful of the Hopeful Fool.

Sunday, January 08, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

a quick comment...but why would this friend of yours have agreed to drive with you to dinner with another friend if she wasn't comfortable hanging out? she should have brought it up with you in the first place! and, i mean listen you will have some female friends who are more religious or have jealous boyfriends with whom you probabyl won't be able to stay friends...does it mean that it's RIGHT? NO WAY...normal secular people have friends of the opposite sex when they're married and there aren't problems but it means that because we are religious or because some ppl have over protective significant others...you will not necessarily be able to maintain friendships with them...and unfortunately in life, friends of the same sex AND the opposite sex come and go for many different reasons, this is just one of them..i will try to write more later...more luv frmo the jestifer that is furry jess!

Monday, January 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that there are times it works and times it doesnt. It all depends on how comfortable or uncomfortable it is to the other person in the relationship. But you cant just bring it up easily becuase of the whole trust issue...in general, its a very fine line. Sadly for me, the girl cheated with a friend and ditched me in the most horrible of ways...so now i am very much not a fan of friendly relationships.

Monday, January 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

wow, people are really getting pissed about this.
first, it is your opinion about the situation and like you said there's nothing wrong with posting your feelings about the events in your life. after all, isn't that what a blog is all about?

second, the "anonymous" person. what big balls you have, calling mr. hopefool out on his feelings and minimizing them to suit your point. you don't even have the decency of stating who you are. if you have these opinions stand by them and what you think. rather than calling him sleazy, and high schoolish. it certainly is easy to talk shit about people when they don't know your name, isn't it? you my friend are a coward, just for that.
if you are the person that he is talking about in his blog then perhaps, you should discuss this with him on a more private level. i certainly hope for his sake you're not that person, because i'd feel bad knowing that he ever considered someone like you a friend.
you certainly have your opinions about Hopefool's previous relationship and what kind of "expertise" it does or does not give him. what kind of expertise do you have? what gives you the right to take that relationship and decide that it wasn't enough for our (my) friend to have opinions on relationships?

i do not appreciate on my friend's behalf the way you decided that his feeling and points of view were wrong. we all had to sit here and read your negativity and opinions, taking credibility from the blogger and his feelings about the situation.

you don't have the right to tell him to take that blog down. the constitution gives us freedom of speech and he used it and should continue. just as you will, even though i'm certainly not interested in what you have to say. if you don't want to see it, then i suggest that you don't log onto the blog and read it.

Monday, January 09, 2006  
Blogger Hopefool said...

Ohhhhhh Snap!!! That's right ya'all!! What have we learned here people? Basically that if you disagree with something I post, that's fine, just make sure you state your arguement in a mature and respectful manner. If you decide to go on an all out, distorted rampage against then beware: Jen's got my back and she will rip you a new one as well.

Monday, January 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bone, you are a bigot and I hypocritical liar. I disagree with everything you said in your blog (though I didnt really read it) and I disagree with disgust. (spit on your shoe) Disgust! (spit on your shoe again). My disagreement is well warranted becuase, well, uhm, on to the other commenters....

Thursday, January 19, 2006  
Blogger Hopefool said...

I love you Josh!

Sunday, January 22, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whoever wrote the anonymous ripping my boy clearly takes it up the ass. It is hard for me to imagine this kid ever stopped sucking on his/her mothers' tits. Regardless I am sure brokeback mountain is your new favorite movie. come on stop with the bull shit I know who you are and without a doubt sounds like the dumb ass palestinians trying to quote Israel out of context then get on CNN for some sunday morning fun. if you cant chill with a person cause they are being dominated in a relationship by some fucked up factor(for example the other person in the fucking relationship) they should peace the fuck out. By the way why dont people curse more on the blog fuck tachlus fuck all this other shomer bullshit just fuck someone IM telling you then you could finally let go of the gross tits.
Hey look I just ruined my entire post by cursing a lot and making no sense at all, hmmm sounds like another post I read.

Monday, January 23, 2006  

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