SKIRT'S THE ISSUE
HI everybody!!! ("HI Hopeful Fool!") I hope you all had a wonderful Passover, and that you once again fully appreciate the filling, fluffy, flavorsome yumminess of bread (Go Challah!). I have to say that my Pesach was rather good. I went to Mets games, met half of the team and got their autographs (more on that tomorrow perhaps), and spent the last 4 days of the holiday in the Nevele, courtesy of the best letters of the alphabet. The tennis was competitive, the weight room was sore-inducing, the company was grand, and the food was deliciously incessant. There were many thought provoking conversations/debates and I'd like to open up the blog to one of them: the continuing battle of Skirts vs. Pants (which ranks 5th on the all time rivalry list behind 1.Jedi vs. Sith 2. Yankees vs. Red Sox 3. King Kong vs. Godzilla and 4. Catholic Priests Vs. Struggling young boys who won't sit still and do as their told.)
This rivalry dates back to the 40's when a young Katherine Hepburn shocked the world by sporting the, until then, legged garb of men. Since then there has been a great deal of debate within in the Jewish world about women wearing pants. It has been brought to my attention that there are many girls who only wear skirts, but don't really want to. They feel that if they wear pants this will hurt their chances at a good shiduch. So basically they'd like to wear pants but feel a social restraint. They feel they will be judged and looked at differently, and would rather avoid the foolish gazes and marring tongues of those who see pants-wearer's as lower dwellers of the (modern) Orthodox shidduch pyramid. This bothers me on a number of levels. My first argument is if you're wearing skirts because you're afraid a guy might not want to be with you if you wear pants, then you probably shouldn't be interested in him in the first place. Actions speak louder than appearances. I'm sure we all know a girl who wears pants who might in fact be frumer than a girl who only wears skirts.
Secondly there are several rebbeim who say there is really nothing wrong with women wearing tznius pants. Obviously tightass-ass pants would not be modest. But semi-loose fitting Ann Taylor's (and the like) aren't untznius in the slightest, and there should be no social ramifications for a women who dresses in such garb.
Third of all, if a guy doesn't go out with you because you wear pants, I can almost guarantee you he's lying. Think about it: "Well she's smart, incredibly sexy, funny, compassionate, davens daily, does bichur cholim, and loves the Mets, BUT SHE WEARS PANTS!!!! I'm sorry it's just not going to work out." Are you kidding me?
Personally I couldn't care one way or the other if the girl I was seeing wore pants or/and skirts. It's really not my decision to make. I happen to think girls look better in skirts (they do add a certain class and grace, plus a girl who wears pants runs the risk of getting pantsed), but I honestly don't care. In fact the last 3.5 girls I went out with all wore pants. Sure, there are guys out there who think differently than me, and I'm sure there are girls who think the same way as those guys- so it's probably best that those guys go out with those girls. If you're the type who honestly doesn't see the problem in wearing nice, tznius pants (I'm not sure where jeans fall in- I'll save that for the comments), but only wears skirts because of shidduch reasons, I say start wearing pants. You can't be someone else for someone else. If you're not true to yourself then it will come back to hurt you in the future.
Now of course we should always be striving to grow spiritually, but I don't think wearing only skirts truly symbolizes spiritual growth. I think growth in this area is more reflected in tfillah,learning, chessed, midot etc..., basically actual mitzvot. I'm pretty sure a girl doesn't get a mitzvah for wearing a skirt (and on a related note- will I get an avayrah if a wear a kilt in Scotland this summer?).
So in closing I think that you girls out there should be who you want to be, not who everyone else wants you to be. And you narrowminded guys should stop being so judgemental (am I actually telling other people to stop being judgemental?! weird), and look past such ridiculous things as skirts vs. pants and make a decision based on a girls actions and personality.....and of course looks, because at the end of the day we all know that's what's most important...except for the fact that they're not.......aren't they?
More on dating issues in future blogs. This was fun.
posted by Hopefool at Monday, May 02, 2005
10 Comments:
a little less naivety and a little more realism may do you some good. just a suggestion
Naivety in what way?
and of course looks, because at the end of the day we all know that's what's most important...except for the fact that they're not.......aren't they?
Dude, you are confused!
Bottom line is, that the reason why you would date someone with pants is bec. you don't care about her level of frumkeit, just if she's good-looking or not.
At the end of the day, do you want to marry someone who will raise your kids Shomrei Torah U'mitzvos, or passing on "hot-looking" genes are enough for you...
Geez anonymous!! I guess you're obviously not someone who knows me because if you were, you'd know I was completely joking about the looks thing.
Secondly my whole point is that someone who wears pants can be just as frum, if not frumer as one who wears skirts. I happen to prefer skirts, as I mentioned, but its not a criteria as to whether or not my kids will be raised shomer torah umitzvot. I'm going to pick my wife on actions not appearances (and I'm sure she'll be quite hot- if only in my eyes, but those are the only eyes that should really matter anyway). Because boy are appearances ever deceiving. I know a girl who looks all bes yaakov on the outside, but her actions are like something from one of the girls from "Melrose Place" (or just a soap opera if you're not familiar with that show). I also have a good friend who wears pants and is a remarkable girl doing chessed, davening daily and giving huge amounts of tzeddakah. Skirts, pants, whatever. Actions are waht count. That doesn't sound so confusing to me.
ahh the bone...
1)You make mention of "tightass ass-pants". What are "ass-pants" and how do i obtain a pair?
2)How do you know so much about womens' fashion, s/a the existence of these loose-fitting "ann taylor" pants? Is that from ann taylor's loft?
3) good job on addressing this issue.
So much to say... but here I will be annoying and say--don't you think that one who wears skirts has a better chance of raising her spiritual level than one who wears pants? The skirt is much more modest and aids in modest behavior. Although there is nothing halachically wrong with loose fitting pants, how many of us are going to stick to those? Once being labeled as "pant wearer" its not a far step to designer jeans..cmon--they are hot!
Personally I don't find girls in jeans all that hot. Skirts are much sexier. And I know a few girls who only wear the kosher pants. It all depends on how straight your mind set is. Are you wearing pants to be rebellious or because you honestly don't see the problem in it and don't feel that it will affect your spiritual growth?
I think it's up to every individual girl to determine what will increase her spiritual level. Maybe she feels confined by her skirt. Maybe she needs to focuse more on other issues. The skirt-generally- is more modest, but that's not to say that pants are immodest, just modern.
First off, when you said, "if a guy doesn't go out with you because you wear pants, I can almost guarantee you he's lying. Think about it: 'Well she's smart, incredibly sexy, funny, compassionate, davens daily, does bichur cholim, and loves the Mets, BUT SHE WEARS PANTS!!!! I'm sorry it's just not going to work out.'" Yes, there ARE MANY guys like that, that just WONT date a girl that wears pants- appearances is everything to some guys- I personally want to puke from them, but there are many of them out there.
Secondly, you dated 3.5 girls that wore pants....So that half a girl, I assume you were dating the half that was wearing the pants right???
I agree. Any guy that won't date a girl specifically cause she wears pants is a huge loser. Literally. He could be losing out on something great for a silly reason. And as a guy I have to say that I've fooler around with girls who wore both skirts and pants, and its much easier to do some things when they were skirts, thereby making pants more modest in that regards.
Hi- I hope I'm not too late on posting on this topic- I used to be queen of rationalizing why certain halachot didn't apply to me, and I spent lots of time on the pants (and shomer negiah) issue. Unfortunately, there are no reliable, orthodox rabbis that say it is okay (with the exception of having a purpose, like sports/skiing/etc), and to just blatantly say it is okay because of whatever reason you come up with demonstrates that you as an individual are disregarding and disrespecting the opinions of several gedolim of our time. I think that that act of flagrance cancels out any 'bikur cholim' a person might do. There's a reason orthodox schools have dress codes- respect for Torah and tznius. I'm not some buttoned-collar person though- I'm really open minded. I used to go to clubs in my skirts, and then sit down and learn for 2 1/2 hours twice a week... If I hadn't kept my skirt and sleeves as a reminder of who I was in those situations, who knows what might have happened? I just think the pants thing is out of control. And yes, we should be judged on what we wear because it is a reflection of how we perceive and respect ourselves. Even on another level- if you wear brand labels, you are into fashion and high-class stuff, and want to be viewed that way. So too, if you wear skirts, you want to be viewed in a modest way, even if you are not so modest inside, but eventually that can and will develop. Doesn't that say something?
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